TRANSCRIPT OF THE DISCUSSION BELOW

GBADAMOSI: Good afternoon, everyone. My name is Faridah Gbadamosi, and I'm a senior programmer at Tribeca. This is the 24th Tribeca Festival. And you are in the free talks inside the AT&T Lounge. I've had the pleasure of curating the talks in both this lounge and the lounge downstairs, The Indeed Rising Voices Lounge for the last three years. And it's been an absolute joy to bring these talks free and open to the public to everyone. Tribeca is committed to centering the community of New York and creating opportunities for the creative community to engage. One of the ways we do that is by co-hosting these conversations with different organizations. We've been very lucky to co-host a conversation with the American Cinema Editors and our organization the last two years, and I'm very excited that we continue in this practice. And you are here for Editing Across Storytelling forms. But you're not here to hear from me. You're here to hear from these amazing editors. So, without ado, I want to bring out the moderator, Sabine Hoffman.

HOFFMAN: Good afternoon. Super excited to be here. I’m Sabine Hoffman, I am very happy. Member of American Cinema Editors, where we strive to elevate the recognition of our creative contributions as editors. And with me to today, our three amazing editors that have worked in different formats. And I invite them all on the stage right now. So, then we can introduce them with their bios and so they don't have to stand in the room.

HOFFMAN: Okay. Thank you.

HOFFMAN: So, in the middle, Molly Goldstein has over two decades of experience in post-production. Her first feature was Palindromes for director Todd Solondz. Notable credits since then include Not Okay came, directed by Quinn Shepard, Little Men, directed by Ira Sachs, and Elinor Smith's Peabody winning series Dickinson. Upcoming work includes the first live action feature from Pixar's Andrew Stanton, In the Blink of an Eye. Her series pilot season, starring Mandy Patinkin and Catherine Grody, is featured in this year's Tribeca Film Festival. And Molly is also the co-chair of the American Cinema Editors Internship Program in New York.

HOFFMAN: Andrew Morreale is an award winning editor, producer, and director, having worked in film and television for nearly 40 years. He edited  Barbara Walters: Tell Me Everything, premiering at this year's Tribeca Film Festival. Other credits include Pets, the Academy Award nominated short doc, An Essay on Matisse, and the short doc Beyond Broken, which he also directed and credits. Other credits include Nine Innings from Ground Zero, I Have Tourette's, Playing for the Mob as part of 30 for 30, and We Feed People, directed by Ron Howard. He was a co-executive producer for the series Friday Night Tykes, Co-producer and editor on Geraldine Ferraro: Paving the Way and a co-creator for ESPN's The World Series of Poker. And in his spare time, Mario runs a biannual charity event, We'll Sing for Food, raising money for local food pantries.

HOFFMAN: And Stephanie Filo is a four-time Emmy winning, as well as Peabody and a Eddie Award winning film and television editor, producer and activist. She serves on the board for Girls Empowerment Sierra Leone and is also the co-founder of End Ebola Now. Her work includes the new documentary series Mental State, and A Black Lady sketch Show, winning both an Emmy and an Academy Award. And in 2023, she was the first picture editor to be Emmy nominated for three different series on the work of at the same time. Most recently, she was nominated for an Independent Spirit Award for her work on the feature We Grown Now. Her film at this year's Tribeca Film Festival is Horse Girls, directed by Lauren Maring. I want to thank the Tribeca Film Festival and our ACE Festival Committee specifically for making this happen. It's wonderful to have an opportunity to talk about editing, and I'm especially excited. As part of storytelling, to talk more about how we participate as storytellers in the films that we work on. It's often said that editing is the last stage of writing, and while that is definitely true, we we have talked about how often people think, oh, fix it in post. But really, I always say fix it in prep and get involved as early as possible. So, I would love to hear from every one of you more about how you got involved with your projects and your philosophy about all that. So, whoever wants to start, no, no particular order. Oh and oh, just before sorry. You can think about this for a second, but we will have time for Q&A also. So, we're inviting you to think about questions you may want to ask. And just quick, just quickly, who is an editor here? Awesome. Who's a producer? Yay! And directors. All right. Great, great. Thank you.

HOFFMAN: Well, in terms of your involvement, Yeah. So how, when do you get involved and how you first get involved? Sort of getting into the when, you know, obviously we get hired at different times for different projects.

FILO: Definitely I think as editors it's like a dream when we can be involved as early as humanly possible. It's not always the case. I think more often than not, we end up kind of starting as dailies are starting or right before dailies are coming in. But to your point about fix it in pre, really, you know, it's, it's if you have your editor there, just to give guidance, even if it's just like, oh, I see this issue that might be in the script or this issue. If you're working on a documentary, like make sure you get this kind of footage. It's just so, so important. And I think it has always made such a huge difference. The film that I have here, Horse Girls, I was involved kind of from right as the script stage was ending. And it was, you know, a great opportunity to kind of like, give feedback and thoughts on what I thought might be helpful, during the process and what, you know, just give any insight as well as, you know, on the film We Grown Now as well.

I was like, these are VFX shots that we needed. We had to recreate the city of or we basically recreate the area of Cabrini Green, which doesn't exist anymore. There's high rise towers that are not there. But we I knew within VFX we had to recreate all of these 16 story towers. So it was like just starting these conversations so early was so, so helpful because we had a minimal budget, minimal schedule. Yeah. So, it's just crucial.

GOLDSTEIN: Yeah. At minimum, I want to start when the shooting starts. If I can be watching dailies and assembling scenes as it's being shot, then I can catch things as they're happening, whether it's this performance is making me kind of nervous, it's a little over the top. Maybe try and pull it back a little bit, or I think you're really going to want an establishing shot here. Is there any way to go grab that? Those are the kinds of things, very concrete things that editors can do if you're on-board during production, at least on seasoned. I came in, I think, a week or two before the camera started, so I didn't really have any input at the script stage. What I will say is that I was on board on time in time for the table read, and I love going to a table read because it gives you the chance to experience the story in real time, which is otherwise something you don't get to do until you have a full assembly and being there for the table read, you can immediately start to zero in on. This is going to be kind of long. We got to get here sooner or even there's a there's a moment in our pilot where, so it's about Mandy Patinkin and Kathryn Grody. They're married. They bicker as many married couples do. They're wandering around New York City trying to find a place to eat. And we all know what a challenge that can be at 9 p.m. on a Saturday night. So they're fighting, they're bickering, they're not getting along. And there's a moment I won't spoil it, but there's a sort of magical moment where all that fighting breaks. They observe something and it breaks. And I remember in the table read, it's very touching. I remember in the table read being like, oh, thank God I needed a break from this bickering, like I needed this moment. And then when we were in the edit weeks later, it was over time, we weren't sure that they were shot. Well, we are kind of having a hard time pulling it off. And we were like, oh look, it works.

GOLDSTEIN: If we cut it out and I was able to go back in that moment in the table, read when I was fresh to the story, you know, because the other thing that happens is that you work with this footage over and over and over again. You watch it a million times, you just don't feel anything anymore. And I was like, you know what?

When I was fresh to this story, this emotional beat was really important to me. So I'm going to trust that and say that we should not cut it out of the pilot. So those are the kinds of things that really help from coming in early. And then obviously, if you're earlier than that, if you have a chance to develop the script, the film might have come out later this year called In the Blink of an Eye. It's three interlocking stories, and I wove and re-wove and re-wove, and there was a lot of stuff I could have done at the script phase. That just had to happen and take time and not necessarily have stuff we need because we did it in the edit.

MORREALE: So, fix it in pre…. I don't really even understand that.  It’s usually, “Andy will fix it” Is what I often get. In the documentary world you oftentimes feel like things are dropped in your lap. And I'm not saying I'm not giving the producers a tremendous amount of credit for the production and the planning, but there's, you know, there's the pitch to the network and what that looks like on a deck or maybe a sizzle reel. And then there's the director's vision, and then there's the shoot, and then there's the director's revision of that shoot, and then there's the footage and how it speaks to telling the story. So oftentimes I force myself in in the early stages as much as I can. Not on this particular project, but I remember one that I had, about 1500 hours of documentary archival footage for this project that I worked on.

MORREALE: I actually started a year earlier and spent about a month and a half just pulling stuff and helping the production team decipher, like where the characters that they wanted to maybe focus on and by piecing some things together. Then I went away and came back, and that was extremely valuable because I helped them come up with some building blocks to establish the story focus.

MORREALE: For Barbara Walters, there was a tremendous… it was the first of all, the best team I've ever been a part of. And they came to the table with a tremendous amount of archival stuff. Most of the interviews were done, but there were still interviews to be shot, and they would always ask my feedback on, you know, what content do you feel like we need? Or they would ask me to put together something in preparation for where there might be a hole that we need to fill with a new interview. And in the documentary world, editors usually start and the archival material. If it's an archive driven film, the archival material is usually retrieved and gotten throughout the process, which I have a pretty strong hand in asking for stuff for that.And then it's just a matter of making it work, which we'll get into.

FILO: Have you guys noticed there's this notion to where people, they're like, oh, we don't have money to pay an editor yet, so we don't want to bring them on just yet. And I think for the most part, like all of us would rather just know what's happening. Like, I want to be included in emails. I want to know what's coming and like, not to speak for all the editors in the room. But I think we're all pretty anxious people. So, it's like, I would just love to love to be ahead of the curve on it.

GOLDSTEIN: And there's a lot we can do in an hour, a week or two hours a week, or for whatever it is, like reading a script, having a conversation. These are things I'm always happy to do if I'm not working full time.

MORREALE: Yeah, yeah. Same thing with Barbara Walters. They sent me her autobiography and the biography, and I read that free book, but not paid for my time. But the book was free, so I'm very happy about that.

HOFFMAN: Yeah. I was going to get into the whole like process and also what is your own discernment that you use in the story. You know, like how do you immerse like you the earlier the better. And we become quite involved with the stories we're involved with. How do you help that and how do you also utilize that?

FILO: I mean, I think for me, I'm a huge, just researcher for every project that I work on. If I know, for example, Horse Girls, that's, premiering here is about a neurodivergent, woman and her mom and her discovery of the Hobby Horse thing. So, there's three things there already to, to kind of research, you know, so I just kind of delve into all of those elements, but also Hobby Horse thing was like a whole other, universe that I knew nothing about. So, you know, I think as editors, we just want to kind of like, know as much as we can before jumping into the process. And if it's something where it's like, tonally, I knew, okay, Dan Romer is a composer that our director just loved, and it was like tonally what she wanted to go with for this score. So I just started pulling Dan Romer music ahead of time. I'm like, let me just pull these and see what the tone might be. Let me see how I can, like, get into the headspace of these different characters. Which I think a lot of people don't realize as editors, we kind of do what you have to really like, sit and live with all of these, all of the characters, whether it's a, a TV show, a film, a documentary, you just really have to live in that headspace for like 12 plus hours a day. So the more prepared you can be and the more research, the better.

GOLDSTEIN: Yeah. And I find one of the sort of lines we have to walk as editors is, you kind of have to feel like it's yours to do your job. Well. You have to have a sense of ownership and immersion, and you also have to know that it's not yours. You know, you're not the director. It's your, at the end of the day, serving their vision. But also you kind of have to have your own vision to supply when theirs isn't working or they're tired or they're grumpy or they're hungry or whatever. So it's this very, it's a weave, you know, and, and I think the biggest challenge every day is just figuring out which side of that line you're on. And am I and I channeling someone else right now, or am I tapping into my own sort of storytelling story soul and providing my own vision here? And where do those things come together? And the best projects are when those visions are complementary, whether and I've worked with directors where it's like, oh my God, we just share a brain. And I've worked with directors where I'm like, you see it this way, and I see it this way, and out of that conflict is going to come something productive. And it can go either way. But I think, when I think of that sort of, you know, how you immerse and how you find the vision, it's always that challenge of like what's coming from myself and what's coming from the director. And how do I merge those two things.

MORREALE: Yeah, that's very true. It's  not yours. And it's taking me years to realize that it's not yours because they want you to invest your time and your energy and to be passionate about the material. But, you know, you don't have ownership over that. But I think you quickly realize, especially in a collaborative team, that the producer that you're working with or the director that you're working with are also struggling with those things because as much as they are putting their stamp on it, they don't own it either, unless it's an indie thing.

But oftentimes the network has the last say. So we're all sort of, addressing notes, addressing people's issues. I think the best way to get around losing ownership and not feeling like you're in control is to really understand what the note is that you're given, and then don't encourage them to come up with the solution to the problem. Just if they can clarify what their problem is, then you address the spirit of the note, because you know the material and you know the best way that you can solve the problem, even if it's a problem that you don't recognize. So, I mean, I usually start out where I do read as much as I can and do as much research, but then I want to get in the director's head and I want to ask her or her, he or she, you know, what do you what do you like that's out there? What don't you like? What movies do you go and see? What kind of music do you like? And then I feel like if I can make a connection with them on a human level and their taste, their stylistic taste, it makes it easier. Even if I don't agree with their stylistic taste, at least I know. Oh, I don't think Jackie's going to like if I go down that road, because she said she didn't like that part of the film that she saw.

GOLDSTEIN: So yeah, comps are such a funny question and editing, because I can't tell you the number of times that somebody has sent me something and they're like, I want it to be like this. And I look at it and I was like, well, you have to shoot for that. You know, like the why? There's a Steven Soderbergh movie that's really famous for editing, Sarah Flack cut it. I'm blanking on the name, but The Limey, thank you so much. The Limey is an incredible editing movie. If you haven't seen it, you definitely should. And it has this sort of magical thing where they start a conversation in one location and then it's finished in another, and it's repeated over here. And it's just this kind of has this kind of magical effect. And the reason they could do that is because they shot the same dialog in multiple locations. I don't care how many clips you send me of The Limey, I cannot edit that for you if you do not shoot the same dialog in multiple locations. So I always ask for comps because I'm always curious what people are thinking in terms of tone and music and, you know, the amount of the comedy versus the drama and the sincerity versus irony. Like, there's a lot of things that are useful for. But editing is so dependent on working with what's there that if you send me a comp that doesn't match what you shot, my hands are tied.

HOFFMAN: Yeah. And that goes also earning, I mean, your partner in the storytelling, but you also need to earn the trust. So Andrew was saying how you start by doing a lot of research. We try to come close to a common vision, but it's really finding that trust and earning that trust. And then if you're lucky, you can work on many films and don't have to start over every time.

Right. But talk a little bit more about, your relationship with the director when it comes to hard places and how. Because I think our toolbox is not just our actual craft tools. And how can I build a scene and what do I have? And can I make a shot out of something that wasn't there initially? But it's also diplomatic tools. And how, like you just mentioned, the note behind the note, or how can we deal with certain comments. So tell us a little bit more about your experiences and maybe also how you solved.

FILO: So I feel like as editors, a lot of times we're kind of therapists in a way. And I think sometimes what it comes down to is like, say there's a director or a producer who has like, this amazing vision, didn't have the budget or time to maybe shoot something. So sometimes you'll get notes that are like frustrated notes, but it's not like frustrated at you. It's frustrated that maybe that footage doesn't exist, you know? And so you end up having lots of like, back and forth conversations about ways to make that possible. And I know something that I do a lot is like, I'll create alt versions of things, right? If it's like, I know that my director wants to see this, let me create this, this and this version of the same sequence and see if there's like something to that.

Maybe there's something we can merge with it. And I think even just by showing different variations, sometimes that eases the nerves of the people you're working with as well. Just because it's like, okay, there are options here. It might not be exactly what you had hoped to shoot. But we can get it there. We can get the intention to match, so that's kind of how I try to try to handle that. Usually, or, you know, just lots of brainstorming sessions, you know.

GOLDSTEIN: Yeah, a lot of what I try to do is bring down the tension, you know, like if we're frustrated, if we're a lot of directors are just beating themselves up, you know, they see a scene that's not working and all they see is like, I was wrong on the day. I didn't get the performance. I didn't get the shot, I didn't. And I'm working with the director right now who's really just in his head about this stuff. And I just try to say, okay, well, let's try this. Let's try this. That didn't work. Oh, that was good. Oh, let's build this. And you just want to kind of loosen up.

FILO: Be playful.

GOLDSTEIN: Playful and easy. And we're just trying stuff, you know? We're just here making a thing man. And so it's really I think about one using the creative tension and also the sort of goes to what you're saying about notes.

A lot of times you have someone who says, you know, I want to intercut these scenes that I want to start with this, and I want to end with this. And you're like, great. And you do that and it doesn't really work. So what I will often do to your point about versions to is be like, here's the one that's to the letter of what you asked me for, and here's the one where I just tried to make it work and I forgot about the specifics. And nine times out of ten they come in and they say, oh, that's the one I like. And they're like, yeah, good note. And because of course it's the one where you've ignored the specifics of what they said and just focused on the spirit of it, you know, and  that exact and studio notes and network notes and all of that get a lot of shit from all of us. Sorry. Can I curse? Okay. They get a lot of shit from all of us, often rightfully so. But if you just throw out the solution and look at the problem 85% of the time, they're spot on.

MORREALE: First doc I ever worked on, I was one of three editors, and I was a junior editor working my way up, and there was one person that was maybe a little bit more experienced than me, and she had just finished cutting something, and the director started giving her notes, and her reaction was, okay, but I think it's perfect. So she was fired the next day. So yeah, of course we always wanted our way, but we're humble enough to realize that we could be wrong and, and it is unfortunate that we have to do versions, but it's taken me a long time to realize that the note doesn't go away if somebody has a note, it's going to be there as much as you want it to go away, you're going to have to address it. And maybe you don't have to address it immediately, but you're going to have to show that director or producer the idea that they are putting out there for you to try, because then you don't establish enough trust and then you wind up going and there is a lot of tension. So, I do think, always trying their way and having multiple versions.

To Molly’s point is, is the is the best answer and not to be rigid, but it's taken a long time. There was one time where I was extremely irritable and the producer said, you know, you’re really like difficult today, like, what's your issue? And he said, what's your what's your home phone number? This is before even cell phones.

And I gave him my home phone number and he called my wife and he says, you know, Andrew's like he's being really fucking irritable. What's his issue? I think it was a note that I gave him and she said, no, just feed him.

HOFFMAN: Yeah. There's so many factors.

GOLDSTEIN: Editors are like dogs, man. You can buy our love with treats.

HOFFMAN: Appreciation goes a long way. Yeah. Yeah. I love always the idea of the editing room being sort of a safe playground for ideas and being really open to things. And then the tricky part is when things change in the process to keep that playfulness all the way throughout and all the things that you used, maybe in the first round as criteria to make a cut or to, oh, this is the scene we absolutely need or that to be able to rethink that, you know, and that happens sometimes when we have screenings, sometimes just like over time. But I, I would love you to talk a little bit about that, that shift that happens because it's contrary to what some people think. It's not one film that is just gradually made. It's one film, and then it changes. And then we as editors have to constantly change the criteria under which we even select a performance. You know, we made the character a certain direction and then suddenly we need to completely rethink that or something happens, in terms of your fact finding and you need to shift it. So yeah, talk a little bit about that.

FILO: I think as editors, we just have to be as malleable as possible always. And I think, you know, just to your point earlier about notes, it's like sometimes we'll get a note that we so much disagree with where you're like, this is the dumbest thing I've ever heard. There's no way this is ever going to happen. And then you try it and you're like, oh, that's exactly like, it's perfect. Wait, they weren't right. So we just have to be as like, moldable as possible. An example of that is on the film, We Grown Now, there was a note that we were constantly getting my director and I, and it was like this, like one of the characters just didn't feel like he had a, closure. Like we were just like, we end this story of one of the boys, and we don't end on the other boy. And so, like, two days before we locked the cut, just, like, out of nowhere, we're like, wait, what if he does this? And so there's a whole, like, new prayer sequence that existed at the very end of the film. That's kind of a montage and ties everything from the film together. And that's after, like, multiple walks with my director. That's weeks of us just being like, how do we can we move the cards around? Maybe we can make some other scene work here. And the solution just like came to us one day, like right before we locked the cut. And we're like, you know what? Actually, the whole movie is kind of about this character coming to terms with, like, the world around him, with his spirituality.

And we're like, maybe he just needs to, like, say a prayer for his friend who's moving away. And ultimately, that's like my favorite sequence in the movie, but that only exists because we were like, malleable to constantly changing it and moving things around and seeing what would work. So, I think just for all of us as editors, like, that's the most valuable thing we have, is that we are all we can think on the fly and like trying new things.

GOLDSTEIN: And it's so funny too, because it's always once you find the answer, it's so obvious. But it takes all that time of working and listening and trying and you can't force it, you know, like I, I did this film where there's a, there's a conflict between the main character and, she, she tried to think of how to simplify this.

Basically, she's she really becomes clear by the end that she's the villain and that this other character is the one who was right, and that the main character, played by Zoey Deutch, needs to just kind of exit the narrative. And it was always a struggle. There were so many versions in the script phase. They shot a couple of different versions. We cut so many different versions, and then we were like, oh, we just need to end the movie earlier, you know? Like if we just cut off all of these scenes that it never worked in the writing or the shooting or the editing, or if we just end it here where she does sort of leave this room, that is exactly the right way to end the movie. And it all it took was two years of everybody involved playing their heads against the wall.

FILO: Yeah.

GOLDSTEIN: So sometimes, you know, sometimes editing isn't the time of the keyboard, sometimes it's just the time of like, trying and marinating and thinking and figuring out what's the right thing to do.

MORREALE: Yeah, you're not on an island. And I think it's really, you know, the tonal shifts of editing and storytelling really depend on, you know, who's in the room when it happens. Right? So I think sitting there were many times during the Barbara Walters edit where it was mostly remote work. And there were problems that were, noted, but solutions that not were not figured out until three of us were in a room together to try and figure out what those issues were.

MORREALE: One thing with biopics are really tricky, like verité run documentaries. There's a footage, there's, there's scenes that sort of unfold as you follow the character in a follow doc kind of situation. And a lot of times that material speaks. But when something is is interview driven and it needs to be the quintessential story of this person because there's been other biopics before, but this is going to be the story that you, you know everything about Barbara Walters.

And and we'll never have to make another film about her again. Those are difficult because you want to do it in a feature length 90 minute or 100 minute sort of, format. But there's that whole concept of, you know, cradle the coffin, you know, how early do you start and how far do you take it? And one of the issues that we had with versions was, chronology, your friend most of the time. And you always start with, like, let's tell this story in the order that it happened, because then we know there won't be any holes, and then we'll figure out how we can start in and flashback or whatever. But I remember one the director had had a real issue with not wanting to start at the beginning, and it was just boring. Starting with childhood. And I said to her, like, let's just start there. We'll we'll start building it from there, and then we'll figure out a way to start the film differently and then circle back to it. But I knew that it was like it was bugging her because we tried it. It didn't work. We tried a different open and the network rejected it. And then we were struggling and then we went back to starting with childhood. But I knew it was like a thorn in her side, like, I like, I want to figure this out. And once we all got into the room together, we came up with a solution. But a lot of times it's like something that you can't do solely on your own. Yeah, it's it's so interesting how also, like, these shifts can, can make such a difference and like one, one like how we shape like a character and how the perception of the character shifts, right? When we have everybody hates that character. And then you, you rework it and then suddenly we love them. We, we want to get to, questions soon, but I also wanted to, to hit a little bit on our, our idea of training the next generation. We have an internship program at ACE where we offer up and coming editors. Molly, talk a little bit about that.

GOLDSTEIN: Yes. So thank you. I, I did ask Sabine to talk about the internship. So, thank you. We have the ACE internships the applications are open now. They opened on May 1st and they closed on June 30th. They're open to anybody who's at the beginning of their career in post-production. And, the internship has two parts. The first is a week-long lecture series that is available to everybody who applies, there will be a week on zoom and then a full day in person, just sort of pulling back the curtain on post-production. What does an assistant editor do versus an edit room assistant versus a post PA versus an associate editor? What's a turnover? What do you do during the director's cut? All those kinds of things. We're going to talk about. And then on our in person day, we're going to have, we're going to get into some nitty gritty about stuff like resumes, interviews, networking, how to get a job, as well as have some, experienced editors come show some clips, do a show and tell. So, it's basically a week long introduction introductory course in career and post-production. So that's open to everybody who applies. And then the two who are selected as ACE interns get a four week paid, internship where they shadow in three different cutting rooms, a feature film, a TV series and a doc. And then they spend a week touring various facilities. Sound house, color correction. Last year's interns toured SNL. They toured the NBC sports facility in Connecticut. So basically, you get to spend four weeks, literally embedding with different post teams and, seeing how the, the process works in a bunch of different facilities.

HOFFMAN: Awesome. Yeah.

GOLDSTEIN: You're interested. You can talk to me. The application information is on the American Cinema Editors website. You need two letters of recommendation, a resume and, statement about why you want to be the ACE intern.

HOFFMAN: Thank you. Molly. And before we get to questions, I would love you all to talk just briefly about something that you would like to give, like you would have liked to have known or something that you would give to somebody that's just starting out in terms of advice or, you know, I can I can start like how I may want to answer this, like stay curious, you know, and be open.

But please elaborate.

FILO: I feel like for me, I wish I had known early on that like, it's okay to push back sometimes, like it's okay to share what your thoughts and opinions are on something. It took me like a few years to be like, oh, it's okay. There's a great dynamic. Because I think especially when you're first starting, it's like you don't realize your voice has so much power in the room as an editor.

FILO: You know, kind of like you said earlier, you're like the final rewrite of any script. You're kind of just there to help massage and make everything, match kind of the intention of the filmmakers. So, it's really just so important to make sure your voice is heard if you have a differing perspective or like a diverse voice that maybe wouldn't have, like, you know, nuance wouldn't necessarily be there without you, like, speak up always. And yeah, I just wish I had realized as a young, young person.

GOLDSTEIN: Yeah, I think mine is, make things, make things, meet people and do what you're doing. Well, if your job is to take out the garbage, take that garbage out. You know, I have hired more people, you know, because that there are reliable and do exactly what they said they were going to do. And that's what makes me want to trust them with the next level. It's not the person who always has their eye on something else or somebody else's job, whatever. But, do what you're doing. Well, and I think that extends up to all levels. I just really try to operate with this spirit of, just bringing my full self to things. And if I'm going to do something, I'm going to do it well, and I'm going to do it full heartedly, and I'm going to do it, in a way that that adds something to the world, not takes it away.

MORREALE: Yeah. Self-produce, play, create, ask questions. And I agree, do it well I mean I got my first job as an assistant editor because an editor asked me for information about a bag that I was carrying around, and I wrote it out, gave him the number to where he can buy it, catalog number, the color.

And he liked my handwriting. And he was like, oh, you know, an AE needs to have really good handwriting, remember, because I started in film and everything was sort of handwritten. So yeah, be really diligent about that. But self-producing it's unfortunate because I think the shadowing thing is a great thing because I learned sitting watching an editor cut because an AE needed to be in the room when an editor was working years ago. Now, less so.

So, to be able to, have the opportunity to sit with someone, you know, be bold and ask, ask questions, but definitely self-produce, self-edit the tools are out there for all of you to play with, right?

HOFFMAN: Right, so let's open up for questions to do people have any questions for our wonderful panelists? Yes, sir.

AUDIENCE MEMBER QUESTION: Yeah. First of all, my name is Mark, a volunteer. I have learned so much. Thank you for sharing all these things. I think my questions are more, you know, what are some of the things that you worked on. As a producer? The documentary filmmakers who are often, you know, trailing the story and. Looking for a way to make us put us in your mindset. You know, if you were on an early.

HOFFMAN: How would you like your partners, and producers, directors to help the process?

MORREALE: I'll just give you a specific thing, because I did do some producing as well. I call them Gizintas and Gizouttas.  So it's like how you get in and how you get out, how you get into a scene, how you get out of a scene. Oftentimes things are shot and follow docs where we drive to the location where our main subject is going to be.

We park in the parking lot, we come out, we walk with that character into the place. But we didn't roll cameras when we were in the car with them. We didn't roll sound. When we got out of the parking lot. It's like, shoot the process of getting there, because that's where oftentimes in the doc, in the real world that people open up and they talk.

So it's really it's oftentimes I've that that stuff has been lacking in the material that I've looked at.

FILO: Think also like sometimes, like I worked on a documentary about Takashi Six Nine where like the story was unfolding as we were cutting it, like every day we would show up, he would have posted some new terrible thing on his Instagram that we're like, oh, wait, this changes the entire, story completely. So just like communicating, I think, with your editors in that in that instance, we, we didn't always it was like the beginning of Covid, I think. Like, we didn't have like that same like connection that we normally would have if we were in person. So just like constant communication, I think with your editor and that stuff like sometimes you'll find things within the footage that like I think of The Jinx, for example, like you hear it off screen and like whoever found that is just, you know,

GOLDSTEIN: Shelby Siegel…an editor.

FILO: Yes, an editor. Yeah, saved the entire day. But it's like just being open to like, hearing, you know, listen to literally every frame of everything because sometimes things happen off screen.

GOLDSTEIN: Yeah. And I think the, the sort of scene level, just give me something to cut to, you know, turn the camera around. You're always trying to if you're got stuck in a coverage or a performance or something, if I have something to cut away to, I can fix it. And don't get me started on the oner trend that is taking over. That said, if any of you who haven't seen centers go see centers, it has a one or that redeems one. But, yeah, but in general, turn the camera around, give me somewhere to go. I can get us out of a jam if we've got something else to look at.

HOFFMAN: Right. Yes. And then. And then you.

AUDIENCE MEMBER QUESTION: Music composer. I feel strongly related to what you were saying. And you mentioned to, about the comments in the beginning, of this with the production. Right. Because we want to.

But, in your opinion. Especially in the productions where the. So what is, the language from the best strategies that you want to in your career that it's, both for collaborations, you know, between the production, the director. Is that because it sounds, in your opinion, something that can be a game changer for us? I mean, if we can use bring, all the pieces together.

HOFFMAN: How does communication in the post process works best and how can we improve it?

FILO: To me, I always just reach out, probably to an annoying extent, early, early on, as soon as I know who the post supervisor, post producer is, I just like, I'm like, you are my new best friend. Like, let's discuss this when? When are different people starting? And is it okay if I reach out to them? Because sometimes they'll just you know, they're willing to give you, you know, the email for somebody if it's like, okay, we know this is the composer, feel free to reach out or I'll send an email. Introducing. So I always just have like that one. I always try to have that one point person, at least from the start, where I'm like, okay, I know if I need something or if I need to reach out to someone, at least they know that. I'm like eagerly trying to get this information and they'll they'll follow up for me.

GOLDSTEIN: Yeah. And I think one of the most helpful things that producers and directors can do also is encourage that communication. You know, I also love to be in touch with the composer. I would way prefer to put together a temp score with stuff the composer not necessarily has written, but is on board with, you know, if we can do the temp score collaboratively, then there's no friction later on when they have to deal with all the temp love that we've developed for the stuff that's in the movie. But everybody like, I want to talk to the DP, I need to talk to the script supervisor. I want to talk to the producer. Like, the more we can sort of break down those walls between production and post, the more we can have a productive conversation. And then when I'm calling and saying, hey, I think we're missing a shot, or the sound levels are coming in kind of low or whatever it is, people will know me already and know that I'm on their side and not feel like there's an added ogre attacking their work, you know?

GOLDSTEIN: And I think that's a big thing is a lot of times I don't know the lay of the land. I'm literally, in many cases hundreds of miles away from production. Anything that the, the producer and director can do to create environment of collaboration, of teamwork, then we can just solve problems without being so worried about egos. And that goes a long way.

MORREALE: Yeah, I just echo that. Don't compartmentalize. Have access to everyone in the production. A big thing is when there are multiple editors working on series. I've been on projects where you're working on episode one and you're working on episode two, and you never need to talk to each other. Well, that's not really true, because story arcs change, especially in Doc Follow series.

MORREALE: They can they can swap sections of cut. So you always want to be able to communicate with the producers and other editors and definitely composers sound design in every aspect of production, because the editors got their hands in every aspect of that.

FILO: I always ask also if I can be present for as many like production meetings or tone meetings or table reads as well, sometimes they might say no, but if you know anyone within post can listen. I would imagine as a composer, it's super helpful to listen to a table read and you can see how something is going to play out or super helpful to like, hear what's going to happen in a tone meeting. And they're talking about what the different like vibes of each scene should be. So just asking. It never hurts to ask. And even if you can't be there, maybe there's notes that were taken that you can read.

HOFFMAN: Great. I have this and then you next. Yes.

AUDIENCE MEMBER QUESTION: I'm working on a project that is very old material. The content is great, but it doesn't (unintelligible).

HOFFMAN: So the question is, are there any tricks to make old material usable or look better? What do you mean? In terms of VHS or what? What kind of source do you mean by old film VHS? Okay, or mini DV or old digital?

GOLDSTEIN: Honestly, I would lean in like it's never going to not look like VHS, so make that the look of the film. You know, there are really distinctive. Every medium has its own distinct color space and glitches. And, you know, film does cool stuff. VHS that they all, they all fall apart in really interesting ways. Like make that your thing.

MORREALE: Yeah. Like picture is forgiving because audiences are used to looking on YouTube and they've seen all different formats. But sound is where if you anything and I've seen some AI sound cleanup which has been phenomenal on unreal in fact where the equalization of filtering out

noisy, audio through using a Adobe has a great I like enhancer, unreal like, unreal. But picture I agree. Lean in because and trust that your audience will lean in because there's an authenticity to it.

HOFFMAN: We had somebody over there, and then we'll come back to ypu.

AUDIENCE MEMBER QUESTION: Yeah. So a lot of, collaboration editors and directors. I was wondering (unintelligble).

GOLDSTEIN: You know, it's such a good question. That's why I'm laughing. Such a good question.

HOFFMAN: You mean, double back for a second. Oh, it's okay. Yeah. So the arc of the first time director

FILO: I mean, I think that's where earlier I was talking about how sometimes you're like a therapist for the other filmmakers. I think it comes into play there and not in, like, a negative way, but it's just kind of encouraging because I think encouraging them because it's their kind of first rodeo at this and and rightfully so, they're probably very anxious and maybe discouraged if something doesn't look the way they want it to look. So to me, the arc is about just trying to like, make sure they understand the like it's okay if something doesn't look the way they maybe thought it would, and it's okay to sit and play with play around with things. And, sometimes I things that I've seen are like though, like sometimes the first time director will be very set on like, this is what I want this exact scene to look like or this exact, exact shot to be what happens here.

FILO: And sometimes that doesn't… Sometimes that's not possible. Right. So it's, I think just important to, show that it can be done in a different way for us as editors. Like, here's that's, you know, when I create different alts, I'm like, here's different variations that give the exact same vibe, but might not be cut exactly the same way and would play better. So yeah, just just the encouragement.

GOLDSTEIN: Yeah. And I think, I've worked with a lot of first time directors. And so I was just kind of trying to flip through my role and mental Rolodex real fast and be like, what do they all have in common? And I think it's really what you're talking about, where they a lot of first time directors come in and they're like, I know exactly what this is and this is what we're going to execute.

GOLDSTEIN: And I'll just tell you exactly what I want, and then we can do it. And then when that doesn't work, they're a little bit at sea. And it can take a long time to kind of persuade them to like loosen the reins a little bit. And it drives me nuts because every day that you won't let me suggest cutting a scene out that we all know is going to go, is just another day that we don't have to solve the problem that comes up after that. So, the thing I first time directors are so afraid to try things, there's a real rigidity and, that it would be the sort of number one, you know, you just watch them and then they finally they let go, and then they feel kind of at sea. And then all of a sudden they realize there's a turning point with everybody where it's like, oh, I can trust you to help me with this.

GOLDSTEIN: And the best ones. And I actually want to give a shout out to Ewen Wright who's here? Who directed the season pilot. And I didn't know how it was going to go because he was a first time director and he edited all of his own stuff before that. And Ewen and we got to skip the part where he didn't trust me.

He trusted me from day one. And, and we tried stuff and we made things and we just, we were able to just hit the ground running on that show because we didn't have to do the part where I pressed button so he would understand that I wasn't a threat. So, thank you, Ewen and, and yeah, that would be my number one piece of advice is like, trust your collaborators, let them try things, and you know what you can do if you take a scene out and you decide you miss it, you put it back in. It's that easy.

MORREALE: I love first time directors, because I always get my way with first time director.

HOFFMAN: What was it when you directed?

MORREALE: I was also was the editor. And actually be editing something that I directed. I was literally, like, just stood there for three months not knowing even a how to approach cutting my material, and soon realized that, like, you're a collaborator and you need to continue to collaborate. I think if you if you win their trust, you can go anywhere with them.

MORREALE: I do find that often first time directors, they have a list of no’s,  like I don't want to do it traditionally. I don't want an orchestral score. I don't want to do it like that. There's a lot of that that you kind of say, okay, okay. Because eventually they slowly start to give in to because it's traditional. It doesn't mean that it doesn't work. It works because it's been done so many times. But they don't want to fall into this. Oh, God forbid, I'm going to it's going to be too cliche or I'm going to do what everybody else does. They always want to be so different. So, if you can hand them something that feels unique and different and you win their trust, then you're in good shape.

MORREALE: I got fired once one time, and it was because it was a first time director and I sided with the first time the director things were going, I thought, okay, the executive producer said, I want to fire the director and I want to edit this film with you. And I said, fuck you, I'm going with her. So, we both left. So, I think it's also to trust them and to be their ally.

HOFFMAN: Oh, absolutely. Yeah. We had one more question. Yes. Please.

AUDIENCE MEMBER QUESTION: So, I have a question. I want to let you know. And I do edit my own films, and I'm wondering what your suggestions are. So, I have a sound mixer who recorded the sound on the set. But sometimes the editor can become frustrated. The sound mixer did a really awful job. And that makes their job more challenging and really difficult for the editor. And you know, I'm deaf.

So, I'm wondering kind of when I'm working with the editor, what would you all suggest? Do I send the editor to the set so that they can be there to verify that the sound that's being recorded on set is good? Or what do I say to them?

GOLDSTEIN: I think make sure they're watching dailies as they come back. Have your editor on board while you're shooting. Make sure they're watching dailies every day and just check in with them daily. I love being in touch with directors in general about dailies, and so I think that will benefit you in all the ways performance picture all of that. But yeah, just talk to the editor every day and make sure that the sound is good. And we do that for directors who aren't deaf. Also.

HOFFMAN: Yeah. Just again, being involved and being communicative. I just also wanted to say there are some really amazing first time directors out there. And it's a privilege to work with them when you know. So, it's not just every first time director is a nightmare. It's the opposite.

GOLDSTEIN: Yeah, I hope we didn't imply that because oh no, no, of course. And it is you when you work with a first time director, you get a chance to set somebody up for success. You know, like a lot of what we do as editors is also teaching, because it is, you know, you talk about it, it's the final rewrite.

It's also the final pass on the shooting, and it's the final pass on the acting, and it's the final pass on everything. And nothing tells you what you need more than being in the edit room and discovering you don't have it. So, when you get to work with a first time director, you really are setting them up to make every future film.

MORREALE: They're not they're not cynical, you know, they're not tainted. So, it's really refreshing to be in a room with someone that has energy and they're not beaten down by the system or the network. So, it's very, very refreshing at times.

FILO: And our job too is to make them look good. Right. As editors, it's like we want every department to shine, you know. And so it's really exciting sometimes with first time directors just just explaining that process, but also just seeing how they kind of light up when they're like, oh yeah, on set, this thing happened and this happened and let's see how we can highlight these different things. So, you know, it can be really exciting to work with first time directors.

HOFFMAN: Absolutely. We have time for one more question. Oh no more questions. Oh okay. So sorry everybody. Thank you so much. Thank you, Tribeca. Thank you all. Amazing panelists Molly Stephanie, Andrew, thank you and have a great rest of the festival.